I was going to post about something more philosophical or faith related. But, since my last science post was such a roaring success, (it garnered the first visit here by someone who didn’t know me, Jarrn) let’s do it one more time! I wanted to share with people a little bit about scientific investigation. This is probably just for the Christians reading this blog that want to know why I think what I think for scientific reasons. If a Christian is going to disagree with me on natural history for theological reasons, they are free to. They are not likely interested in science, or do not yet understand it. A non-christian will likely read this as a “No Duh” rant. So nothing there.But if a Christian disagrees with my endorsement of mainstream science (biology, geology, cosmology, etc.) for scientific reasons, this is for you! If you’re not here for that, I can’t guarantee you’ll get much out of this. Let get this party started…
Let’s start with biological evolution. That’s where the bulk of my study has been done. First off, one of the most important sites in this whole debate is talkorigins.org. I won’t go into detail on what it is and why it’s there, I’ll let the curious investigate. But these T.O. FAQs will answer:
- what evolution is not
- what evolution is
- why evolution is science and
- what the evidence for evolutionary principles are.
So why do I agree with mainstream science in these areas? The short summary is the YEC/OEC/ID communities have grossly misrepresented evolutionary principles and tremendously obfuscated the nature of scientific enquiry (see point 1 above).
Just so you know I was a dyed-in-the-wool YEC. For years I studied Morris, Ham, Gish, Barshaw and, more recently, Hovind. I read ICR literature, Answers in Genesis literature and attended YEC seminars. I was YEC as YEC gets.
Years went by. With the advent of the internet I started finding things like TalkOrigins and the ASA. I found that mainstream science was, in fact, science. Evolution was not a religion like so many YEC/OEC folks claim. It was science. It made predictions. It could be falsified! Do you realize I lived for 10 years thinking that no evolutionary principle was falsifiable? Boy, was I wrong! It is very falsifiable, yet stands the tests of time and rigorous enquiry. “Scientific” Creationism is in no way falsifiable and therefore, by definition, is not a scientific model.
I learned that almost every scrap of “evidence” for YEC/OEC was either anecdotal evidence, fraudulent evidence, just-plain-wrong evidence all presented consistently with fallacious reasoning. I also learned that these heavy-hitters I mentioned above, systematically refused to address legitimate criticism raised about these issues. The current ID movement is following the same path. So if you wonder why the YEC/OEC/ID ideas are treated with such contempt in academic circles, it’s not because the critics are anti-God or anti-Bible; though sometimes the critics are atheists. It’s because the critics have consistently presented legitimate criticisms which have been ignored almost continually since the beginning of these movements. This demonstrates tremendous intellectual dishonesty in the YEC/OEC/ID movements.
On top of that the YEC/OEC/ID movements are completely scientifically vacuous. (Sorry for the long link). Scientific enquiry is about posing a hypothesis that results in a falsifiable prediction. These YEC/OEC/ID ideas (based on Arguments from Ignorance and Post Hoc reasoning) make no such predictions and, thus, are both vacuous in prediction and are non-falsifiable. As such, they are like bailing water out of a sinking ship at the same rate at which the water is coming in… while just twenty feet from the beach… for twenty years. It’s an awful lot of work, and it’s completely pointless (from a scientific standpoint).
This is the tip of the iceberg. The principles of evolution in biology are just one such topic. Cosmology and abiogenesis are other areas of contention. But I have not yet studied them as much. I’ve been researching biology for only a couple of years now, and I’m just scratching the surface. So I will hopefully get to touch these other areas in due time. In summary, I do not let the Bible color my view of science. People are free to disagree with me on theological grounds (I pretty much expect that). But if you want to disagree with me on scientific grounds, well, that’s empirical. As such, there is a “correct” and “incorrect” way of looking at things. Theology doesn’t often give us such absolutes
August 1, 2006 at 8:41 pm
I’ve linked to a tremendous amount of reading material. While I’m happy to entertain discussion (and maybe make future topics out of it, as necessary), please at least read through the first two T.O. Links.
I’d love to help make clarifications so people understand them. But those FAQs are very comprehensive and well written. I just don’t want to have to duplicate what you find there here.
Happy reading, all. Peace!
August 2, 2006 at 6:32 am
I liked this quote I found on one of those sites:
“…I shall be obliged to oppose the notion that the Earth is young. But I shall not attack it; one does not attack one’s own friends…I hope my allies will view me as exhorting them rather than attacking them…For recent-creationists are my friends and allies. Let there be no mistake about that. The things we have in common are much more important than those on which we differ. We share a belief in an inspired Bible. We agree that Darwin was mistaken, and that God is the Creator of every living thing. Compared with this, the question of the age of the Earth pales into insignificance.” – physicist Dr. Alan Hayward
So that is good stuff. But, soes it matter than we were once unthinking Apes? Does it matter that some poor sap was born with the capacity to know God, but his parents were still banging rocks together and grunting? I think it does. I have been looking for some type of document on explaining transitional forms of apes in with the God created man version of the Bible. How does a Bible believing Christian Evolutionist explain when and why God finally revealed himself to humans in their current form? This isn’t a rhetorical question I actually would like to know.
I think that many people use evolution to explain away God, and that is sad. I read Velvit Elvis, I think I saw that you had to, and it opened to my eyes to things I hadn’t thought about before. Really the whole point of the Bible isn’t creationism, its Gods love. Christians should not be finding things to argue about to create divisions, Jesus would never have done that. He would have been down with a group Atheist Evolutionists on an archeological dig rubbing shoulders with them and loving them.
August 2, 2006 at 7:16 am
Well stated Mr. Deely.
I really like this site.
August 2, 2006 at 5:32 pm
Which site, Bling? This one, or T.O?
Good questions, Mr. Deely…
I know there has got to be a few posts I can make from you comments. Remember, this was supposed to be more about science than anything else.
My point is not to be devisive among Christians, but to be elucidating among those who are interested in science-in-practice (that have not yet had fair exposure to science).
Of course, I can understand how difficult it would be for someone who grew up in an evangelical home (like me) to decouple their belief in God’s truth from the bad-science inherent in YEC (again, like me).
This is a process undertaken for love of science and no other reason. As in the first quote you gave: “The things we have in common are much more important than those on which we differ”.
If someone wants to belief in the YEC model, and is not interested in science, that’s fine. I think they do themselves a disservice, but I do not seek to deride them.
August 2, 2006 at 5:53 pm
Well I just don’t know how you can decouple the Creator with his creation. If God did have His hand in some part of the evolutionary process, and He would have to if we are to believe any part of the Bible, then I just do not see how you could possibly decouple the two. I am not trying to confuse religion and science, really I am not.
August 2, 2006 at 5:55 pm
I think I’ll make a post based on Deely’s comments regarding when or how God revealed himself to man. This would be dealing with humans bearing the “image” of God.
One last thing I missed. Deely mentioned “many people use evolution to explain away God”. True. But how many people used the Bible to support slavery? Or denying women the right to vote? How many claimed the murder done in the Crusades, in the Inquisition, in the Reformation/ Counter-reformation, in the conquest of the new world, or in the name of “Manifest Destiny” was the will of God?
Just because some people claim a philosophy justifies something you don’t like, doesn’t mean the justification is is correct, or incorrect. We have to evaluate each claim, unfortunately.
August 2, 2006 at 5:59 pm
The short answer of the “decoupling” question could be (overly?) simply stated as this:
If scientific enquiry demonstrates that all creatures alive today shared one (or very few, but similar) ancestors, who’s to say that’s not “the way God did things”?
August 2, 2006 at 7:25 pm
It’s sad when the author leaves the most comments.
It’s going to take two posts before I can get to that “image” post. First things first, right? Stay tuned…
August 2, 2006 at 7:37 pm
Its all good dude.. I am patient.. 🙂
August 2, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Hehe… I’m getting
writer’styper’s crap!! Arrg!August 2, 2006 at 8:28 pm
Make that three! This is uphill…
August 17, 2006 at 12:49 pm
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August 17, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Hey, just thank you for your link.
KOW – Jarrn, Jekub, Sounour
August 17, 2006 at 4:39 pm
No problem!
March 21, 2011 at 7:54 pm
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